Talk:Western world

What map to use?

Talk:Western_world/Archive_7#RfC:_Map was never properly closed and so it's hard to judge the consensus (the current map used does aling, in fact, with my vote in that RfC, but new arguments have been made since, and I myself agree with some of them; such as 1) not counting Greece as part of the Western world is weird and 2) counting Russia, which is often openly distancing itself from the Western world, as part of it, is highly problematic as well). I've asked for that RfC to be properly closed by a neutral editor, so we can see what, if any, consensus there was back then. This does not preclude a new RfC (5 years have elapsed). @Skitash (regarding this revert). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:24, 7 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed.
Everyone knows Russia has never been part of the west .. ever.
The West literally means Western Europe. ~2025-31828-74 (talk) 09:00, 27 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
And Greece is 100% part of the West, it's literally part of cultural history for thousands of years. ~2025-31828-74 (talk) 09:02, 27 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

CLOP tag

@Freedom4U; I'm trying to clear up the Close paraphrasing tag you added to the article and wanted to ask; do you remember which sections were particularly problematic? This is a very very meaty article that is going to take significant editor effort so if you remember anything, that would be a massive help to us. Of course, no worries if you don't, your edit summary was informative as well. Sennecaster (Chat) 19:37, 30 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The map

Countries like Albania and Bosnia should be colored light blue, while Russia and Belarus should be gray. The current map appears to reflect biased Christian extremist and racist views; Albania and Bosnia are increasingly Western-aligned today, whereas Russia and Belarus are explicitly anti-Western. Could you explain how North Macedonia, Serbia and Belarus are considered more Western-aligned than Albania? It is obvious Russia and Belarus were included solely because they are Christian-majority countries. Ideally, Armenia and Georgia should also be gray since they are geographically in Asia, but to avoid unnecessary tantrum by Christian extremist users who claim Armenia is the "cradle of western civilization", I am only requesting the change for Russia and Belarus. For those arguing we should stick to Huntington’s original classification: this map has already been heavily edited by racist users and now constitutes original research. Huntington originally classified Papua New Guinea as a Western country, yet it is noticeably absent from this map. Cyanmax (talk) 09:44, 15 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

"Albania and Bosnia are increasingly Western-aligned today" I don't know about the sources used in the map. Albania has been one of the Member states of NATO since 2009, while Bosnia and Herzegovina remains one of the current candidate members. Dimadick (talk) 11:28, 18 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly speaking, why are we even using a map based on Huntington's book as if it was completely uncontroversial? Not only is it three decades old, it's considered largely discredited in most aspects (he famously predicted no war would happen between Ukraine and Russia due to their "civilizational links"). The whole "Countries which are either a part of the West or distinct civilizations intimately related to the West" concept is problematic too; wouldn't South Korea and Japan count more than Russia at this point? I mean, Russia or Cuba more closely linked to the West culturally than Japan? Seriously? The Account 2 (talk) 13:15, 25 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thinking of it, do we even need such a specific map in a concept as controversial as this? The Eastern world page uses a broad map of Asia. I think a map showing Northern America and Europe should roughly suffice, no? The Account 2 (talk) 13:26, 25 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Northern America? The geographic definition in the main article would exclude Mexico and parts of the United States: "according to the United Nations' scheme of geographical regions and subregions, Northern America consists of Bermuda, Canada, Greenland, Saint Pierre and Miquelon and the United States (the contiguous United States and Alaska only, excluding Hawaii, Navassa Island, Puerto Rico, the United States Virgin Islands, and other minor U.S. Pacific territories)."[1][2] Dimadick (talk) 10:33, 26 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I meant a Northern America in a broader sense. Similar to this map but focusing on European and North American continents instead of Asia. The Account 2 (talk) 11:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
agreed. And a Political alignment map showing Japan & South Korea included ~2025-31828-74 (talk) 09:04, 27 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure they are "the West", this may be conflating the concept of Developed_country#IMF_advanced_economies, for example. Anyway, if Japan and SK would be added (and I am not convinced they should), surely Taiwan should as well. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:26, 27 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure Mexico is "the West", in fact, I am pretty sure it's not. It's part of the Latin America cultural cluster (see Inglehart–Welzel cultural map of the world). Anyway, yes, US, Canada, and big parts of Europe would make it - but Eastern Europe is problematic. Before '89, EE wasn't the West. Today much of it can be argued to be (of course, not Russia and its Belarus vassal state), although this is debatable (before you disagree, note that current map does count Poland as the West...). See also my comment from few months ago at #What map to use?. Realistically, there is no perfect answer, there are probably many reliable theories / calls we could use, and representing them on a single map is challenging; even choosing the single best map may be hard. Frankly, maybe using a historical Cold War map and saying 'this is the West few decades ago' may be best; I think it was pretty clear what was "the West" during the Cold War. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:24, 27 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The definition of the West was pretty uncontroversial back then. i'll note that the current map dates to 1996, when it was seen possible that Russia could join the broader West (of course, we know how that ended up). As other users noted, some editors also without any reasoning removed countries like Papua New Guinea from the map, despite the fact that Huntington included those countries as part of the West (it doesn't matter what we think, that's what he wrote in his book and we cannot conduct or own original research). The Account 2 (talk) 10:06, 27 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
He also included Kazakhstan as Orthodox, meaning it should be light blue in the map. Again, it doesn't matter how "accurate" we think it is; if we're gonna use Huntington's map, we cannot "fix" the map to make it more "accurate". The Account 2 (talk) 10:23, 27 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Probably a mistake on his part, but we need RS to confirm that. I am also unhappy with his classification of Greece (seems he treated religion as more significant than other parts of culture here). That said, File:Clash of Civilizations world map.png is fine for representing his theory, but his theory is not the only one. I am fine with including it as one of the maps, but I wouldn't use it for the main one. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:30, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"Kazakhstan as Orthodox" I wonder why. Per the statistics in the article on Religion in Kazakhstan, about 20% of the country's population identified as Orthodox in 2020. The country's Christian minorities include Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons. Despite several laws against proselytism, Kazakhstan maintains its tradition of religious pluralism with no major crackdowns against minorities. Dimadick (talk) 12:17, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Dimadick Easy errors to make. People often can be confused about some countries, I've noticed errors in the Inglehart–Welzel cultural map of the world regarding some small countries, I forget right now which ones but I might have even pointed that out in my academic work (IIRC it might be regarding classification of Czech Republic, or some other tiny courtiers). Anyway, for most folks only semi-familiar with this, it would be reasonable to assume Soviet breakaways republic would be Orthodox (whereas the Central Asian ones are significantly Muslim); but - let's face it - it's pretty obscure knowledge. Although one would expect scholars to do their homework, well, who's going to call Huntington on Kazakhstan or Papua New Guinea? Clearly, not other academics or pundits, at least not to the point anyone cares... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:48, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"reasonable to assume Soviet breakaways republic would be Orthodox" It would be peculiar for anyone to make this assumption for Azerbaijan, where an estimated 97% of the population are Muslims. Even Turkey is more religiously diverse, with the Muslim population estimated to about 85% of the population. Dimadick (talk) 12:59, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Dimadick I know this. You know this. 99% of people don't. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:17, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Probably due to the date of the book. Russians used to make up a much larger percentage of Kazakhstan back in the 1990s. The Account 2 (talk) 13:44, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The Account 2, you're absolutely right that Huntington's book is both outdated and heavily biased. Those arguing that "nothing should be changed" and that we should strictly follow Huntington's original map are contradicting themselves, since countries like Kazakhstan and Papua New Guinea are not even included. My proposal is simple: remove Russia - an openly anti-Western actor, and its satellite state Belarus from the map, and include Albania and Bosnia instead. The map already includes every European country, even Belarus, yet excludes Albania and Bosnia simply because they have Muslim populations. It's important to recognize that Muslim communities in Albania, Kosovo, and Turkey differ significantly from those in countries like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia or even France. People in Albania and Kosovo are overwhelmingly pro-Western. While Japan and South Korea are undoubtedly advanced economies, that alone shouldn't qualify them as Western. Culturally speaking, people in these countries do not see themselves as Western; their traditions and social structures remain more closely aligned with China's than with those of Italy or the United Kingdom. Cyanmax (talk) 13:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Cyanmax True, but speaking about Asian countries like this we have to distinguish historical traditions from stuff like civil society, pop culture, political values, etc. Not everyone in Asia supports the concept of Asian values, etc. See also Inglehart–Welzel cultural map of the world, which I think is a much better way to think about this stuff. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:20, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article should acknowledge in the opening paragraphs that the most commonly accepted definition of "The West" is just Western Europe and North America

There are thousands upon thousands of sources which define "The West" as only including NATO-aligned countries in Western Europe and North America, and none of these other places which are being claimed as universally accepted as part of "The West". ~2026-57362-0 (talk) 09:13, 27 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Limiting it to just NATO is wrong - Switzerland, Ireland or Austria are part of the West too, even if they are free-riding on the military aspect. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:27, 27 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
That would be rather curious. The Member states of NATO include several European countries which are not Western European by the current UN geoscheme classification. By order of entry: Denmark (1949), Iceland (1949), Italy (1949), Norway (1949), Portugal (1949), United Kingdom (1949), Greece (1952), Turkey (1952), Spain (1982), Czech Republic (1999), Hungary (1999), Poland (1999), Bulgaria (2004), Estonia (2004), Latvia (2004), Lithuania (2004), Romania (2004), Slovakia (2004), Slovenia (2004), Albania (2009), Croatia (2009), Montenegro (2017), North Macedonia (2020), Finland (2023), and Sweden (2024). Among the Southern European countries, the only ones which never joined NATO are Andorra, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cyprus, Kosovo, Malta, Monaco, San Marino, Serbia, Switzerland, and Vatican City. Dimadick (talk) 12:38, 28 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Latin America

The page used to have a map showing Latin America as Western or at least Western-adjacent. Why was it removed?

It seems that calling LatAm part of the West is oddly controversial in the Anglosphere. Growing up — my IP should say I'm in Brazil —, us being in the West (Occident) has always been a matter of course, even now. The removal of the map from the article makes it seem like it's a fringe view rather than just something that's contested, and I don't like that.

The culture of countries in Latin America is very much similar to that of countries in Europe and North America, and I feel that the entire point of considering Australia 'western' but not us is because we're poorer and they speak English natively.

Though I was the first one to speak up, I don't believe I'm alone; Latin America being Western is the majority view here — read: outside the Anglosphere — and the article used to corroborate that through acknowledging it's a legitimate view.

If the map was removed because it's inaccurate to the 1996 author's actual opinion, I'd dare say it's still inaccurate because the legend has a "countries that speak English natively" label and doesn't mark Guyana nor any countries in Africa under that label. Obviously, I don't actually think the African countries are part of the West, but the fact that the page works the way it does seems like it's reaching this conclusion by going off bias and American-centric 'common sense'.

I'd also like to point out that even people who supported changing the map (presumably to what it is now) said that nowadays, it makes sense to see Eastern Europe as Western even though the whole point of the label had been to differentiate "the West" from the Far East and the socialist East. Being that discourse hints at there being a 'core' West with LatAm and EE being considered part of it or excluded from it as relevant for a given conversation, the map absolutely should show both areas the way it used to. Pls fix ~2026-28898-11 (talk) 13:22, 14 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Definition of major areas and regions, from World Migrant Stock: The 2005 Revision Population Database, United Nations Population Division. Accessed on line October 3, 2007.
  2. ^ Composition of macro geographical (continental) regions, geographical sub-regions, and selected economic and other groupings, UN Statistics Division. Accessed online October 3, 2007. (French)

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