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title, see 'gift economy' etc. 213.134.189.209 (talk) 12:59, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we should date Gaelic Ireland from the Paleolithic. Paleolithic and Mesolithic era Ireland, as a hunter gatherer society, bore little resemblance to the agricultural society described in this article. To quote from the Prehistoric Ireland article "The hunter-gatherers of the Mesolithic era lived on a varied diet of seafood, birds, wild boar and hazelnuts." That's not what Gaelic Ireland, with its literature and art, was all about.

Gaelic is, in part, a linguistic term, referring to a branch of the Insular Celtic languages, which are themselves a branch of the Indo-European language family. We know from genetic studies (see here: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1518445113) that the Indo-European languages only spread to Ireland by the Early Bronze Age, or a few centuries before 2000 BC. It's unclear whether this initial migration saw the introduction of a Celtic language, and therefore an ancestor to the Irish language.

Since there isn't a clear date other than before the advent of writing (there is no other native language attested in Ireland) I think we should just change it to "Prehistory-1607." ComradeKublai (talk) 08:28, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is ridiculous. But I'd prefer something more specific. Perhaps "By 100 AD" can be justified? Meanwhile I'll just amend to give the end date. Johnbod (talk) 15:40, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Or, Prehistoric Ireland, the preceding article in the series stops rather uncertainly at 300 AD. We could use that. Johnbod (talk) 15:48, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we should put any specific date. Ireland can't be "Gaelic" prior to the arrival of a precursor to the Irish language, which itself is pretty heavily disputed- dates range from the early bronze age to a few centuries before St. Patrick. By putting any date we'd be taking a side in that debate or have to create a section of the article detailing the academic debate, which belongs more in an article on Irish prehistory or language than here. Is it an ironclad rule that we need to put in a specific or ballpark date on this type of article?

I think we should change "late prehistoric" to just "prehistoric" in the first sentence due to this uncertainty. The prehistory article stops at 300 because at that point what wikipedia calls the Protohistory of Ireland begins, when foreign sources and begin to deal with Ireland and the Gaels in more detail and Ogham stones start to record fragments of the Irish language. ComradeKublai (talk) 18:19, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just using "prehistoric" takes you back to 10,500 BC again. The culture the article is talking about certainly didn't exist in "the early bronze age", whatever language people were using, while "late prehistoric" is sufficiently vague to cover most realistic possibilities, imo. Johnbod (talk) 18:40, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Prehistory just means before the advent of writing; I don't think saying "Prehistoy-1607" would imply that Gaelic Ireland goes all the way back to the first human habitation on the island. I also think that language is the key factor here even if the article is more broadly about a culture and time period, as Gaelic is just an anglicisation of Gaeilge. We don't really know how much continuity there was between Bronze Age Ireland and the historic period in many respects. Obviously there would have been no Christianity or literacy, but crannogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crannog#History) and a rural settlement pattern punctuated by forts were both continuities. We don't know how far back institutions like the Filí go, for example. I'm not suggesting that the article change its focus from the historic period, of course, just that we lack the evidence to be more specific than "before the advent of writing in Ireland." ComradeKublai (talk) 19:30, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can be sure that many readers would read that to mean "that Gaelic Ireland goes all the way back to the first human habitation on the island", and that is not actually misunderstanding the term. The article is clearly written not to include prehistory, and concentrates on the period we actually know a bit about, say Patrick onwards. Johnbod (talk) 19:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Something like "by late prehistory" would probably be fine given the focus of the article, as you pointed out. ComradeKublai (talk) 19:55, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there's any need for the infobox, which was only added recently. Because Ireland became Gaelic long before recorded history, and because Gaelic Ireland was never one 'state', there's very little the infobox can include. This article is more about a historical period and culture like Scandinavian Scotland, than a 'state' like the Kingdom of Ireland. Also, I can see an infobox bringing a lot of back-and-forth editing. ~Asarlaí 12:01, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, fine with removing it. If we agree on that a hiiden note should be added referring to here, or it will pop back up again. Johnbod (talk) 14:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

30K not counting descent.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/south-africa/our-role/irish-relations/#:~:text=There%20are%20approximately%2030%2C000%20Irish,Ireland's%2040th%20largest%20trading%20partner. 2603:6011:A400:259:A0CC:B1B4:EC2A:A5A (talk) 14:07, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article starts with a recursive definition of what "Gaelic" is: "Gaelic Ireland (Irish: Éire Ghaelach) was the Gaelic political and social order, and associated culture, that existed in Ireland from the late prehistoric era until the 17th century.". i.e. In order for someone to know what Gaelic political and social order is, they are led back to the same article (the "Gaelic" links to a disambiguation page, which lists

• Gaelic Ireland, the history of the Gaels of Ireland

i.e. the same page. Xpander (talk) 17:05, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What do you suggest? Johnbod (talk) 17:25, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]